Can't Delete Toposolid Points and Guardian

 A quick follow up post on my prior post about deleting toposolid points. Scott Brown isolated the issue his team was having to their use of a 3rd Party tool called Guardian. When they disabled it they could delete points as expected again. If your firm uses Guardian too then check in with them about an update to see if it has been resolved yet.

Revit 2024 - New Home Screen

With the recent updates to 2024 we now have an option for a new HOME screen, presenting more options for how to preview and find projects. So far it's working pretty well for me. I noticed today that some projects are "not found" while using it however. Those same projects turn up in the old Home while not showing up in a search in the new Home screen. At first I thought it was related to the number of characters in the project name or the use of special characters but so far that isn't the case.

Ah the quirky stuff...

2024.1 Schema Warning

Glynnis with IDEATE posted information at the Autodesk User Forums that you should be aware of if you're using 3rd party tools and are going to deploy, or have deployed, Revit 2024.1. Ironic that this update is the one that has caused a potential disruptive issue since many firms wait for this point release to deploy. I've taken her initial post and copied it here, go read the entire thread for any more recent commentary. Thanks Glynnis!

There's been a lot of chatter about the Schema error that was landing in a post about What's New in 2024.1 so I took the good suggestion from @RobDraw to start a new thread here.

What is a Schema?

I welcome other people's input on this, but from my perspective, a schema can be best thought of as a blob of Revit metadata, held in Extensible Storage workset, that has a unique GUID. This blob of data is most often used by 3rd party developers but is also used by Autodesk (or companies acquired by Autodesk). The structure of that data, per each GUID, needs to be the same. If a developer alters the data structure, then a new GUID is needed to avoid the error.

What causes a Schema error?

In order to experience a Schema error, you need to have two files (or a file with a linked file) that have the same schema GUID but with a different data structure. Whichever file is opened first 'wins' within the active Revit session. This makes solving these problems REALLY hard because the file that displays the error is not necessarily the file with the 'problem' schema. It's also why this problem seems to be squashed sometimes and then resurface later. If you only ever open one Revit file at a time within a session of Revit, you'll never see the error.

What's the New Problem

The new problem seems to relate to Revit files that are upgraded to 2024/2024.1. The 11 July Revit 2024.1 release notes show that in there were changes made to the API to try and fix an outstanding schema condition. It feels like that change may have created some new conditions. We have an open case with Autodesk on this issue.

This is the latest schema article on this at Autodesk

Autodesk Revit schema issue article

Phasing and Replacement Windows

Over the years people have often complained about trying to document replacing existing windows with modern windows but maintaining the existing opening. This means swapping windows with families that are the exact same size. This is related to the wall that Revit creates to infill a wall that has a demolished window. You may have encountered this warning message?

That message appeared when I attempted to place new windows in the New Construction phase after demolishing the existing windows first. I was careful to set up views assigned to different phases and phase filters so there wouldn't be any display conflicts.

I got interested in this issue again recently because of a thread at the Autodesk User Forums for Revit Architecture. A fellow member was sharing how much trouble Revit has been giving them trying to do this kind of work. After some back and forth I narrowed it down to one window family and another member realized that family uses a void to cut the hosting wall in the family itself versus the usual opening.

This led me to write some hypotheses for testing purposes. I wrote:

Hypothesis A: Within phasing we can replace Existing Window A with New replacement Window B using the exact same sizes (same size opening dimensions) IF they both use an OPENING in the family to cut the host.

Hypothesis B: Within phasing we can replace Existing Window A with New replacement Window B using the exact same sizes (same size opening dimensions) IF they both use a VOID in the family to cut the host.

If either of the above are false then...

Hypothesis C: Within phasing we CANNOT replace Existing Window A with New replacement Window B using the exact same sizes (same size opening dimensions) IF one uses an OPENING and the other uses a VOID, in the family, to cut the host.

I did some testing using the latest release of Revit, 2024.1 and I determined the following:

Hypothesis A is TRUE

Hypothesis B is FALSE

Hypothesis C is neither

I find that I can replace a Void based window with an Opening based window but not the reverse. Also any alterations to the hosting wall in the project; such as length adjustment, or top/bottom offsets, attach/detach will place the void type window at risk of being deleted. Weirder still is that it might not delete all of them, one or more.

It seems that the short answer is: eliminate window families that use a void to cut the hosting wall IF you intend to place identical sized windows in phased projects; to demonstrate existing window replacement without altering the existing openings. Windows created this way will not work for this task. A logical next hypothesis is to anticipate similar behavior in door families.

I speculate that this warning happens because an opening cuts fully through the host while a void (or combination of voids) might cut more and/or less of the host as it travels through it. I suspect that the infill wall can't abide the shape a void might create and that in turn means a void won't be viable as a window to alter the location of the infill wall. I think it's similar to curtain walls only supporting non-rectilinear panels with the system panel families.

I'd love to hear that the developers will test this against their own experience and expectations. I know that a lot of people rely on voids to shape the opening in a host wall to match a variety of actual construction techniques for openings. To eliminate voids in families as an option for this kind of project (replacement windows (and doors?)) is not ideal. They'd probably have to revisit the entire logic of infill elements where demolished hosted elements occur. Perhaps leave it up to us to fill in holes?

Local Save Does Not Work - Follow Up

 After speaking with an Autodesk developer we now know that our issue is related to past eTransmit use. Revit mistakenly retained a flag it uses to mark that file as such.

If we can successfully use Synchronize with Central and we get that message when we use Save then the correct response to the warning dialog is the top option: "Save this model as a central model in its current location - Revit will remove this message and allow users to create local copies of the model."

Remember, the message is accurate for files that have been created via eTransmit too. In our situation the files were working fine on BIM 360 but they retained the flag that should have been removed when they were added to the cloud.

Info Added 6/4/2021: The warning is triggered ONLY in the following scenario:

The warning is triggered ONLY in the following scenario: The model has been transmitted and then upload to BIM 360 from Revit using the option “Work temporarily”.

To eliminate this warning for future project, please make sure you choose “Save as a central model in its new location” when uploading the models to BIM 360 from Revit.

Large Extents -Can't Navigate in a View and-or View Will Only Show Wireframe

I've written about Revit's fussiness regarding large extents numerous times over the years. In some of those posts I mentioned a related view issue. A view that refuses to show the model in anything other than wireframe is a symptom of the large extent issue.

I recently encountered a project that didn't have any DWG files to blame for it. Not only did the view not show according to graphic style settings it didn't allow navigation of any sort. The view was frozen. We could open or close it but nothing else. I noticed I could use a crossing selection window but then using Filter to focus my troubleshooting effort was still too coarse.

I've been meaning to mention how much I like IDEATE Explorer (IE). It has been very useful to examine projects and track down issues. It permits examining a model in ways that Revit can't. for example, I can select a category of elements or instances of each family/type within the category.

I use it routinely to check for excess DWG imports (resulting from exploded DWG content), workset assignment, reviewing warnings (more effectively than Revit's own), phase assignment/usage, content naming/usage and resolve line style usage (and more).

After using the crossing selection window in various parts of the view I realized some structural elements seemed quite far apart. Keep in mind the view was a white screen of nothing...imagining gazing toward Earth from Mars and trying to pick out where California is or my house. The Project Base Point and Survey Point didn't even show up in the view.

I started with trying to isolate where in this vast white space the structural element was but no matter what I tried I seemed to always select some structural framing.

Once I knew which category to hunt in I used IE to look at individual framing elements. I found a single framing (W Beam) was 2+ million feet long. I expected to find a family very far away, not one that was just very long. I realized that a Structural Framing schedule could have revealed this element too, if I knew which category and to look at Length. I did make a schedule just to see if I missed any other really long framing.

One Beam, one verrrrry looonnng beam killed any view it was visible in. 3D views are where we were confronted with the problem but other views whose extent permitted the beam's true extent to affect the view were also victimized. In the end we rolled the project back to just prior to the beam being added. 

The views didn't "recover" from the harm when the offending beam was deleted. I surmise other aspects of the model were altered by the extent of the beam, perhaps scope boxes, crop boundaries, a connected or joined element...not sure. That will remain a mystery.

May your troubleshooting be quick, effective and "trouble" free.

DWG XREF Follow Up

 A year ago I wrote about XREF DWG files showing up in Revit even when they are assigned to Overlay vs Attached. It hasn't been resolved, meaning Revit is still doing it, no change...

Shortly after writing the post we arrived at our "solution", to assign all Xrefs (in AutoCAD/Civil 3D) to a unique layer(s) and turn that layer(s) off in Revit (via View Templates usually). This way the extra layers of the xrefs do not show up even though Revit is technically ready and willing to show them.

Ramp Slope is Still a Second Class Citizen

Wrote about this before in 2013. Ramps and the Slope Annotation don't like each other. In the past we could work around their unfriendliness by dragging a working slope annotation from an adjacent floor to the ramp. That no longer works since as far back as 2019.

I'm reasonably sure Ramps have a slope... odd that the annotation doesn't think so? I wrote another post in 2013 too that describes using an adaptive point family to add some graphics to a floor posing as a ramp which might also permit using the slope annotation on it instead. Yet another thing to experiment with.

Then again it might just be better to ignore the ramp feature entirely in favor of Floors?

Parameter is Missing for Some Types

From a thread at RFO, Aaron explains what's gone wrong...

Aaron wrote:

"If someone deletes a family that is also the default option for a Family Type, with that Shared Parameter: Yes, the entire parameter gets deleted. It's terrible behavior, and its been that way for years.

In case I wasnt clear: This is a known issue, and it's easily reproducible.

1. Take any Family that uses a Shared Family Type Parameter, that has a default value.
2. Find the family in the project browser, that is the Family and Type that's in the default value.
3. Delete that family from the Project Browser.
4. After you've clicked *DELETE* in the warning, go back to the original Family (the parent family with the parameter).
5. For JUST the types that had that default value set, that parameter is now gone.

And yes, the instances in your project are hella broken, now."

Keynote Schedules Not Updating

I wrote a post in April last year when we were observing some projects that would not update their keynote schedules during printing.

When they issued 2018.3 that issue was reportedly resolved. Moving forward into 2019 and 2020 versions it seems true. However we've seen a few projects that seem to continue to exhibit the problem. Specifically a keynote schedule does not show all of the keynotes that are actually visible in views on the sheet.

With these troubled project files we can force a regeneration IF each sheet view is open during printing. Like before turning the annotation crop boundary off/on or on/off will cause a regeneration too. However printing is when it matters the most. More testing is required before I can be certain there is an ongoing issue in the more recent releases but these projects do exhibit the problem in more recent versions too.

The current solution is to open all the sheets that must print first and then print to PDF. Alternately open a sheet view and print and repeat for all required sheets. If all the views are open then the revision schedule regenerates (you can watch it happen). The sheet view does not have to have Revit's focus, just has to be open in the background at least. Any sheet views that are not open won't refresh.

Revit 2020.2.1 Hot Fix Posted

Regarding my last post - a Revit 2020.1 Hot Fix is now posted.

Of specific interest...Autodesk writes:

Issues Resolved:
Fixed an issue that resulted in the loss of family data in some workshared models when family definitions had not been recently modified. This fix does not repair models which have encountered loss of family data, for more information refer to Family Corruption in Revit 2020.2

Revit 2020.2 Corrupt or Unusable Families Issue

Autodesk posted an article describing a particularly unpleasant bug/issue that started to appear shortly after 2020.2 was made available. This is the text from the article. If you're using 2020.2 pay close attention, you don't want to catch this bug. They've removed the 2020.2 download until they've resolved the situation.

Issue:
The Revit team has identified a defect with Revit 2020.2 that affects a small percentage of customer projects. In order to reduce the likelihood that customers come across this issue, we have temporarily removed the Revit 2020.2 updates while we work to provide a build that remedies this defect. For customers that have already installed Revit 2020.2, please see the FAQ below. We apologize for any inconvenience this issue may have caused.

Solution:

Q. What is the issue?
A. A change in the way that Revit 2020.2 processes families can cause family content to go missing from workshared central models created in previous versions if the families have existed in an active project for a long time without being modified. The defect results in the deletion of the family content from the central model.

Q. Which versions/models are affected?
A. This issue affects only Revit 2020.2. Previous versions are not affected.

Q. What models are affected?
A. The issue can affect workshared models that were created or upgraded in Revit 2020.0 or 2020.1 which are then repeatedly modified in Revit 2020.2. This issue can impact central models stored locally, on Revit Server, or in Revit Cloud Worksharing. The following models are NOT affected:
Non-workshared models
Workshared models created and exclusively modified in Revit 2020.2

Q. What if I have already installed Revit 2020.2?
A. If everyone on the project team is working in 2020.2, there are a few one-time operations you can take in a Revit 2020.2 build to prevent the issue:
Rename all families in the project (e.g. FamilyX to FamilyX-2 and then back to FamilyX)

OR

Save the model as a new central (must be a new file, not Save As to the same location)

OR

Reload all families (including company, Autodesk, and 3rd party families) in the project

OR

Move the entire project team back to Revit 2020.1
If the team is working on mixed versions, we suggest first getting everyone onto the same version. Working in a mix of Revit 2020.2 and earlier versions can reintroduce the issue to model(s).

Q. What is Autodesk doing to resolve the issue?
A. The Revit team has reproduced the issue and is actively working on a build that does not contain this defect. In the meantime, we advise against installing Revit 2020.2 until the Revit team provides an updated build. To reduce the likelihood that customers come across this issue, we have temporarily removed Revit 2020.2 updates from Accounts and the Autodesk Desktop Application. Due to backend constraints a full install of Revit 2020.2 continues to be available from Accounts.

Q. When will a fix be available?
A. Thanks to the support of our valued customers, the Revit team has been able to reproduce the issue and has identified a fix. In the next few days we will be thoroughly testing the fix. Assuming all goes well, it will then take the team a few more days to make the build available in Accounts and the Autodesk Desktop Application.

Q. Revit 2020.2 has been available for months – why didn’t Autodesk communicate anything previously?
A. The Revit team was first made aware of a possible issue by our customers a few weeks ago. Since these kinds of issues can be difficult to reproduce from scratch, from the time a concern was raised we have been working closely with those customers to reproduce the issue. We were finally successfully able to reproduce, and therefore confirm, the issue at the end of last week when we took action to limit the availability of Revit 2020.2. We have been working diligently to clarify the full scope of the impact and the possible workarounds in order to write this communication.

Q. Why didn’t the Revit team discover the issue during pre-release testing?
A. Unfortunately because this issue requires a combination of model creation and modification of families in a previous version and then extensive modification to the same model in 2020.2 it does not lend itself well to typical testing practices or automated regression tests. This means that unfortunately, despite rigorous Revit 2020.2 testing, we were not able to identify the issue before it affected customer models. We sincerely thank the customers that escalated the issue to us so that we are now able to take appropriate action.

Q. What actions will the Revit team take to prevent this kind of issue from happening again?
A. After the Revit team resolves the immediate issue, we will be holding a retrospective to clarify how the defect occurred and what specific actions we can take to prevent similar issues in the future. As much as possible we will look to create automated tests to cover this kind of situation as that means that every future Revit code submission will be scanned for similar problems.

Linked DWG Xref Overlay vs Attached Bug - Part Two

Two options exists to work around this situation (last post). One is easy and Revit focused but depends on the AutoCAD user a little and the second is impractical and depends on the AutoCAD user entirely.

• Xrefs on their own layer
• Xrefs always unloaded

If we can count on the AutoCAD user being consistent to assign all of the file's xrefs to a unique layer not shared by any other elements then we can still turn off the overlay xref when it shows up. This shouldn't be too difficult to achieve and many firms already have that standard for xrefs.

If the xref's are always unloaded before closing a file then they won't show up in a Revit project. That's pretty unlikely. It's inconvenient for AutoCAD users and forgetting just once and the system fails.

Internal Origin Follow Up

After I shared the earlier Dynamo graph I received an email from Aaron Rumple that did away with any package requirements. He wrote a python script and added it to my graph. It also eliminates the warning message that appears after running mine. The crux of that issue is the need to filter out view templates from the process because while view templates are applied to views under the hood they are also views...at least that's my layman's understanding.

Many thanks to Aaron, a real design software savant.

Download the new Dyn

As before, my graph allows you to include/exclude the internal origin, survey point and project base point. Just edit the settings of the Dyn before running it (see previous post).

Work Plane Based Families and Rotate w Copy

I participated in a thread at Autodesk's Revit forum and it took me far too long to catch on to the issue described at the outset. I should have retraced the thread sooner, but I did get there eventually.

I'm referring to the Rotate tool and its Copy option, this...

The issue boils down to this: the Rotate with Copy option works/affects a Work Plane-Based (and face-based) family differently than when a family is merely hosted by a Level (all non "based" families). Let's start here, imagine I want two screens on my desk like this.

These are stock families: TV - Flat Screen.rfa and Desk.rfa The desk has a top surface that isn't visible in plan view so it can't act as a face to host the TV. I changed that. The TV isn't a work plane-based family. In a plan view, when I place it on the desk it ends up eaten by the desk because it looks like this in a 3D view.

Sure, I can use its Elevation from Level parameter to put it on the desk (an illusion of a relationship). When I move the desk I need to remember to select the TV too (or make a group...or...I digress). I get the clever idea, "Make this family Work Plane-Based, that's easy!"

Using Rotate with Copy should give me the result I want in the first image and it does until I check the box for Work Plane-Based. The angle I decide I want between the screens is 22.5 degrees. I added a couple reference planes for the images to help see what happens, the desired result.

That's what I want except that they should be hosted by the desk, not relying on using the Elevation from Level parameter. When I use Rotate with the Copy option after editing the TV family to make it Work Plane-Based (also Always Vertical is checked) I get this result.

Notice the TV angle itself is correct but it's location is wrong...and a warning message appeared to help me notice... It's been moved/copied by double the input value of 22.5 degrees using the origin of rotation correctly and managed to maintain the angle I wanted. This next image summarizes what happened.

That's weird enough on its own but I can go weird by one more, un-check the TV's Always Vertical parameter. After running through the exercise again I get this outcome.

This time it applied the rotation input angle of 22.5 degrees x 2 = 45 degrees to both rotating the family and its position. This time it did it fully wrong while the previous time it only did it half wrong.

Introduce a Floor, instead of a desk family, into the mix and place the TV family before it is Work Plane-Base with Always Vertical and this happens. No rotation, just copy and in the same place no less.

When the TV family is Work Plane-Based and Always Vertical is used then it works wrong in the same way as relying on the desk's face as the host did.

I imagine Revit is attempting to relate the rotation and copy actions to the family's host, since that is the work plane the family is hosted by. Clearly it is unable to do so properly. I think it is reasonable to expect to get the same result whether level based or work plane-based. This post and the images are from using Revit 2020.2 but I did the same things in Revit 2016 with the same results. This has been around for quite awhile now.

If it is any consolation, the Mirror and Polar Array tools don't suffer from this malady but each have their own prep work required to make them a ready replacement.

Revit 2020.2 Internal Origin Redux

Happy Thanksgiving to those who observe!

One little thing I'm thankful for, I got a file yesterday from Autodesk (TurnOffInternalOrigin.Dyn) that is meant to be run in Dynamo Player (it's a custom node in testing ATM). You can download the file, place it wherever your Dynamo Player is looking for files already or in Dynamo Player just browse to wherever you placed the file. Click the play button (see image) and it will turn off the Internal Origin in all views. This approach means very little Dynamo knowledge is necessary, just enough to get Dynamo Player open and find the file.

Since I already put in some time with my own graph which included the Survey Point and Project Base Point I decided I'd like to be able to turn on/off all three or just the internal origin or some combination. I modified my graph (Control Coordinate Graphics.dyn) to provide input options (see image).

When you use Dynamo player you can edit the input options through On/Off switches (see image).

Click the little Properties button (looks like a old Macintosh computer to me). Clicking the toggle will make the statement either true or false for each "hide" question. All three true = all off for example. Remember my graph is dependent on a node from the Archilib package, make sure you've installed that before trying to use it.

Reference Planes without Names

It is a common practice to add a name to the reference planes we create. If it isn't common where you work then it ought to be. The name helps give a hint to anyone that works in the model that this reference plane is more important than those without a name. It can also help understand what it is for, why it was made.

There are some who make the effort to clear out reference planes that are not named periodically, just another of any number of model/housekeeping chores. I've even seen Dynamo scripts intended for this task.

If you're using Ideate's Explorer you'll find it easy to see a summary of all the reference planes in the model. In the following image I've created two reference planes, one with a name and another without a name.

Notice that there are five (5) reference planes listed though. As it happens, when the Edit Profile concept is used on a wall four reference planes are created and internally applied against the sketch of the wall. They are only visible to us while editing the wall's profile sketch. We can't see these reference planes in the regular user interface, it only becomes very apparent with their Explorer tool.

It is also possible for us to create reference planes while creating any sketch based element, like a floor or stair for example. These reference planes are only visible to us while editing their related sketch.

The reference planes associated with a wall's edited profile can't be deleted via IDEATE Explorer. It can delete them when we've created our own within a wall's profile and other sketch based elements.

Attempting to clean up these unnamed reference planes might also be an issue if you're writing your own code or Dynamo script to delete them. We can/could add names to these internal reference planes (wall profile) but I don't think that's a task that worth the effort.

Something to keep in mind.

Structural Column Disappears - Part Deux

Yesterday while trading messages with a friend we discussed my previous post about columns disappearing. He suspected it might explain the issue he was observing. After looking more closely it turned out that it doesn't. In his situation the structural columns were modeled the full height of the building and Join Geometry was used on walls, that passed through (overlapped) the columns, at each floor (level). The result: at some levels no column appeared while at others they do.

It was necessary to pull the walls back so they stop at the surface of the columns. Join Geometry allowed for the desired appearance and the columns reappeared at the other levels where they were missing earlier.

Filter Dialog and Reading a Long Filter Name

Dialog stretchiness has been an ongoing long standing user wish for all dialogs. Daniel wrote to me hoping that I'd echo his complaint about the Filter dialog. Yes you can stretch it but the frames remain less so. The Filter name frame does add a scroll bar at the bottom when a filter name exceeds the width of the frame, which does not increase in size when the overall host dialog stretches out. Ideally we'd be able to stretch/adjust individual sections of such dialog boxes. If memory serves that is dependent upon which GUI tools are being used to generate the dialog. If that tool set doesn't do it then...we don't get it...without a custom entity.

Daniel was writing about Revit 2019. Even when you scroll over to the right completely a filter with a long name gets truncated and you can't read all of the name.

I note that in Revit 2020 a tooltip will appear that displays the full name while the frame does the same truncating even when it has been scrolled completely to the right.

Naturally, we can avoid it if we can use Filter names that are not very long, an easy fix...there's that word again - easy. Easier said than done...it seems.

Structural Column Disappears in Detail View Type

When we create a Callout within a plan view we can choose between Floor plan and Detail. A structural column that uses a negative offset won't show up when a wall exists in the same location when a Detail view type is used. It works fine in a Floor plan view type.

Here are some example images. The first one is showing the negative offset used. If the offset is zero then there is no graphical issue, the column shows up.

This image shows both callouts in the overall floor plan, Detail on the left and Floor on the right.

This is the Floor Plan Callout, column shows up as expected.

This is the Detail Callout, no column is visible.

This is the same Detail Callout but my cursor is hovering over the column and Revit sees it, highlights it despite not being visible. The wall is masking the column.

This is the same Detail Callout but the view is changed to use Wireframe and the column appears.

It boils down to the negative offset applied to the column. The graphics hierarchy does not respect the full height of the column and the wall element is drawn over the structural column. We can also get around the issue if we edit the column family and remove the option: Show family pre-cut in plan views.