Copy Monitor Wall Location Line Selection

I mentioned in a previous post that 2016 quietly introduced a parameter that lets us choose which Location Line is important to reference when we use the Copy part of the Copy/Monitor features.

Now that I've been trying to use it regularly I'm running into a quirky situation since installing R2 (I can't say for certain it doesn't happen in the previous version too). When I select a wall it works on the just the first wall. When I choose additional walls I get this warning.

Initially I thought it was happening because I thought it is important to assign the Location Line of the walls in the source linked file to be the same as intended in the host file, but then I don't remember having to worry about that earlier...pause...

Then it occurred to me that whatever Location Line setting I used for the last wall I sketched, in the host model, might somehow influence the process. I tried that and I don't think that matters at all; and it shouldn't in my opinion.

After experimenting a bit further it only works reliably when I use the Multiple selection option to choose all the walls I want to use Copy/Monitor on. I've repeated this using stock content (Imperial) and Architectural and Structural templates. If you'd like to corroborate my findings please try these steps:

• Start a project with the Architectural template
• Create six walls with: Basic Wall Exterior - EIFS on Mtl. Stud
• Use Location Line: Wall Centerline
• Save the file as Test CM

• Using the Structural template link Test CM
• Create a Stud 2x6 wall type (6" because the stud layer in the linked wall is 6")
• Start Copy/Monitor
• Map the linked wall type to the host's Stud 2x6 wall type (in Options)
• Choose Location Line: Core Face: Exterior (in Options too)
• Start Copy and select one wall (no message)
• Select another wall (Error message yes?)

I suspect the nature of wall joins is affecting whatever method they are using to evaluate the wall for the C/M process.

• Use Undo and Start again before using Copy/Monitor
• Set Options again, just to be sure
• Start Copy
• Select Multiple
• Select all six walls
• Click the little Finish button (no error?)
• Click the big Finish button

Earlier I mentioned being concerned about the Location Line setting of the walls in the linked model. I tested for that by starting with walls in the linked model assigned to Location Line: Core Face: Exterior. It didn't make any difference in my testing (see next image). Fwiw, when I first saw this new option appear I did think that was what they intended us to do but Revit just places our version of the wall according to the chosen Location Line position, not according to what the source wall is actually assigned to.

Thinking about it further I realized that if we really could influence this by changing the value in the linked model it should have already been easy for us to use C/M; if they just allowed us to swap wall types based on their setting. Revit was biased to only use Wall Centerline, ignoring the others.

I was nearly convinced that all I had to do was make sure to select the walls using the Multiple option but then in another file it didn't seem to matter or help regardless. Then I noticed any wall I was successful using C/M on (picking them individually) but was touching a wall that generated the error message also needed to be eliminated so I could start again clean. When I used Multiple after getting back to a clean slate I was able to use Copy/Monitor without an error message.

I conclude that the safest way to ensure Copy/Monitor doesn't generate a confusing warning is to isolate all the walls we want to use C/M on and choose the Multiple option. Remember the little Finish button before using the Big Finish button!

Also remember that anytime C/M gets ornery we can just use Stop Monitoring on the affected elements. Fix the problem elements and then use the Monitor part of C/M to let Revit start watching them again.

Revit 2016 - Copy Monitor - Wall Location Line

I don't recall any mention of this appearing in the What's New documentation or presentations. I stumbled into it the other day and meant to write about it but my aging Dell finally bit the dust and that distracted me. I find this new parameter and options appears when I examine the Walls tab in the Copy/Monitor Options dialog.

Interesting isn't it? I experimented with using the option. This image depicts a linked file with compound architectural walls being used to create Stud Only walls in a structural model.

I specified that C/M should create a Stud Only wall type instead of the compound wall type being used by the architectural model. I then used the Location Line: Core Face:Exterior.

I didn't find any help documentation to support this new feature. What I did find declares that C/M just uses the Wall Centerline for alignment, which was true until now!

Also, fwiw the openings created at the doors and windows are the correct sizes but only because the families don't have any additional geometry beyond the extent of their frames. I placed openings in the walls at the curtain walls manually using the Wall Opening tool (Architecture or Structure tab > Opening panel > Wall).

Copy Monitor - What Elements are in a Relationship?

A friend recently asked if there is an easy way to find out what elements are currently involved in a Copy/Monitor relationship. Good question! No easy button exists for this that I'm aware of. Sure we can select all grids and looks for C/M monitoring icons. That's not too hard for levels and grids. It's much less fun for walls, columns, floors or any of the MEP related categories that can be involved.

It might be an interesting question/problem for enterprising Dynamo aficionados or API programmers?

It would be nice to generate a report of the elements in a relationship and with which model and elements their relationship is based upon. I think it is just another example of the kind of refinement that Revit's collaboration tools ought to have.

Changing Column Types and Copy Monitor

Using Copy/Monitor Revit does not complain when we change column families or types. It does complain if the column is moved. This is different from other elements like grids and levels. My understanding is that the way they expected Architects and Engineers to use the feature is a little different for columns, something like this:

• Architect places schematic architectural columns (different from structural columns)
• Architect sends model to engineer
• Engineer uses copy/monitor to create structural columns where the architects schematic columns are
• Engineer sends their model to Architect
• Architect adjusts their columns to be masking only (unless they are left uncovered)

The disparity between column types is intentional because an Architect's needs for the column are often different, masking a structural element versus designing/engineering the column itself. It can also be argued that it would still be better to complain when the column family is changed or swapped for another type (size). Even if, as the Architect, I've shifted my focus to wrapping structural columns it is likely worth being warned if the structural column has changed.

To be warned requires me to have a copy of the column to monitor, which I'd prefer to avoid ordinarily. In general, I encourage Architects to remove their own columns (structural or otherwise, if they use them) in their model as soon as the Engineer is hired and they send them their structural model. Now the architect can focus on using walls to wrap columns as required by Design Development and Construction Documentation. I resist the natural temptation to have my own copy of elements if at all possible, striving to avoid redundancy. Using copy/monitor (the monitor aspect only) can still alert us to major changes to location of the grids/columns.

For now Revit doesn't complain if we change the columns, as long as that change isn't its position/location. If that doesn't fit our model view then we need to let them know.

I wrote this post in part because of a thread at the Autodesk Revit Structure online user group. I wrote this suggestion to work around the lack of warning.

Since Revit is sensitive to movement, we could agree to move columns that are changed like this. If the architect is redesigning a column they can swap out the type for a new type but also move it off grid by a specific value. This will prompt a coordination review when the file is refreshed in the other discipline's file. When they examine the column they'll see the change is more about the size than position. They can respond to the change and move the column back into position, which will prompt coordination review upon return. We could agree that such trigger movement would always be East to West and always a specific distance or something like that so each team knows what to expect.

Copy Monitor Walls and Openings

I've mentioned in the past that we need to be careful using the Copy/Monitor (C/M) tool on walls when we use the option Copy windows/doors/openings.

When Revit examines the geometry of the family used to create the opening in the C/M'd wall it looks at the overall geometry to define the opening's size. That's usually not good because trim on the face of the wall does not define the opening required. The stock door families (and windows) are good/bad examples of this in action.

This is an opportunity to bring up another advantage of creating doors like described in A Door's Life, they behave when you use C/M. Why do they behave? There isn't any native geometry in the host door family. The frame, door panel, swing and hardware geometry are all based on nested families and the C/M tool doesn't "see" them when it creates the equivalent opening in the C/M'd wall.

Here's a comparison based on stock and not stock doors, in plan view.

The openings created from the stock doors are as large as the trim elements that surround the opening of the door (3" wide trim). The openings for the not stock doors as as large as the opening in the host family and all the nested components are designed to fit inside the opening that's used in the family. The nestedness of all the components prevents them from being detected by C/M.

Here's the elevation of the same doors.

Monitor a Multiple-Segment Grid

When multi-segment grids were introduced they were not able to include them in the Copy/Monitor "loop" for Grids. We can monitor them, sort of. Since Copy/Monitor won't cooperate we can create our own "copy" of multi-segment grids by selecting them in the linked model and using Copy to Clipboard and Paste Aligned to Current View. We just need to remember to use the TAB key to cycle "in" to select elements in a linked model. Alternatively we can sketch our own version over the grid(s) in the linked model.

Once we have our own version we can use the Monitor part of C/M to let Revit watch over it, sadly...only sort of.

When we just use Monitor Revit recognizes the individual segments, not the whole multi-segment grid as a complete grid. If their original changes the process break downs even further. We do get a warning that the monitored grid has changed. If we select our version of the grid we don't get the Stop Monitoring button that normally allows us to sever the relationship. Our version also doesn't trigger the Coordination Monitor button when we select it after getting the warning when we reload the link or open our project fresh. If we just delete our version the coordination monitor warning is still lurking and I find that it will show up again later complaining about the deleted grids (ours). At this point it is messier to use Monitor than just watching for changes ourselves.

If we are willing to place individual grid segments over their multi-segment we can use Monitor and get normal results if we monitor each of their grid segments against our own individual segments, just not if ours are also are a multi-segment sketch based grid.

Short story, even using monitor only on multi-segment grids leaves us wishing for better. Hopefully the Copy/Monitor tool will get smarter and work with Multi-Segment grids too!

Copy Monitor and Name Changing

I use the monitor part of Copy/Monitor to create a relationship between my existing levels and levels in a linked model. There is no need to use Copy because I've already got a couple levels to work with. In this scenario I'm using Revit MEP and linking an architectural model. I'd like my level name to match the architects. If you use Monitor first and then decide to make your level names match the linked levels you'll get a message like this.

Revit isn't really evaluating or comparing the names. If it was it would realize that I just changed it to match the monitored level. Instead it's just reacting to the fact that the name (my level's name in my file) is now different.

Moral of the story is, if you intend to use the same names it is best to change them before you start using monitoring. If you don't then you'll need to stop monitoring, change the name and then restore the monitoring.

Copy Monitor and In Use Element Types

When you edit the Options for Copy/Monitor doesn't give any indication which of the families that show up in the lists are really used. This means you can assign elements unnecessarily.

In some cases it seems somewhat apparent which are used or not. In the first image the Level type actually used has a slightly different options than in the second image, which is the level type not used.

It would be cool if Revit identified the elements and types that are actually in use in the linked file, at least without having to read between the lines.

Shared Coordinates and Copy Monitor

I read and responded to a post at AUGI over the last few days. The problem is that levels in the structural model won't display the shared elevation values based on the architecture model. To replicate the situation I imagined what steps were taken, based on the info in the post. I couldn't reproduce the problem. However, one thing my attempt didn't include was the Copy/Monitor tool (C/M). It turns out that when the levels are involved in a C/M relationship they won't acknowledge the change in their type parameter setting: Elevation Base > Shared.

Here's the steps that were part of the issue:

1. RAC Model started with Level 1 at 864'-0" elevation (not at zero)
2. RST gets RAC model and moves their levels to match
3. RST uses Copy Monitor for levels and grids
4. RAC model uses Relocate Project to move back to "project elevation" 100'-0"
5. RST uses Acquire Coordinates to adjust - no acknowledgment of change

If you do this without C/M (step 3) it works.

Once two files are sharing coordinates you can't really remove this relationship. If you remove the link and import it again (Auto - Origin to Origin) the relationship survives.

To truly remove (really more like replace) the relationship I use a new file that is based on the stock Revit template default.rte. I import this file and Acquire Coordinates from it instead. Revit can only acquire coordinates from one source file so using a "good" one "resets" it so it is possible to acquire them from the original file after removing the C/M relationship.

Once the shared coordinates are "reset" I was able to import the RAC model and use Acquire Coordinates to match up the elevation values. Lastly, I used Copy Monitor to let Revit watch the levels again. Hopefully it doesn't happen again!

Little Finish before the Big Finish - Copy Monitor Etiquette

Here's a quick one. When you use the Multiple selection option during the Copy/Monitor process you must remember to click the little finish button on the Options bar before clicking the big FINISH green check mark button. If you don't you don't get your copies or any monitoring to take effect. Here's a quick video to show what I'm referring to.

Dept. of Quirky - Copy Monitor Fixtures

I observed that rotating a fixture using the Space Bar doesn't cause Revit to consider the fixture moved when using the Copy Monitor feature. If the fixture is moved then it generates a coordination warning. This means you can't just rely on the software to let you know a change occurred that needs to be dealt with. It can't do everything for us but I'd have thought this sort of change would get trapped at least. Here's a VIDEO that explains it visually.

Revit MEP - Hiding Elements in Linked Models

Revit MEP 2011 introduces a way to copy/monitor additional elements from linked architectural models. A client asked me how to hide the originals in their views once they've used this new feature. I was attending the BIM Analytics event at USC and couldn't respond effectively during the day so I did a short video tonight in an attempt to make up for it. I've embedded it here too.

Two techniques are mentioned in the video; using an override of the Model Categories for the linked file or an override of a specific Workset assuming one is created for such a use in the linked file.

Dept. of Subtle - Invert Background and Copy/Monitor

Users who prefer a black background have to suffer slightly poorer graphic quality when seeing various icons that Revit uses. A good example of this is the Copy/Monitor tool. When you use this tool a little icon appears of a sine wave, EKG or "heartbeat" symbol.

I personally liked the old "evil eye", eyeball that used to show up...but I digress.

The point is that this icon is invisible when you use the black background. A VIDEO is equal to all these words.

Copy/Monitor - Walls

The Copy/Monitor Tool is handy for helping others start work by acquiring the same Levels and preliminary Grid layout. Then Coordination Review helps us keep these coordinated.

The Tabs in the C/M dialog start from the most "important" or "likely" to use to the "least". That's my perspective about that.


Walls don't C/M very well at this time because Revit forces walls to align via the Wall Centerline Location Line, regardless of Location Line settings applied or in use in either model. What we really "want" for example is to allow RST to C/M RAC walls and map the multi-layered RAC wall to just a RST structural wall type. Doing this breaks down because of the Wall Centerline alignment.

The workaround suggested by Autodesk for the time being is this:
Don't duplicate the walls using C/M feature. Instead, manually draw the structural wall and then use Align to the Location Line of the linked .rvt wall. Once done, you can “Monitor” only feature. By doing so, Revit will remember the offset distance between the center lines of manually drawn walls and the linked wall. it is a pain to have to do it on each pair of walls.

The other gotcha is openings in walls. The overall geometry of the window/door creates the opening in the C/M wall which means it is too large an opening in most cases.